Updated MI map - suggested replacement for current map

Potatomaster#2412 brought up in discord the fact that someone updated and completely redid the MI map, updated to 1.13: https://www.minecraftforum.net/forums/mapping-and-modding-java-edition/maps/2919677-monsters-industries-3-0-1-13. Also RIP MI original download: it was deleted on the minecraft forums migration.

If this is used, some (fairly major) changes will be needed, like more clear instructions, better indication of villagers, better lobby player count system, better map layout, etc. But unlike the other one this one actually redid the entire system into command block chains. No more spaghetti redstone wiring!

Also note that due to how Paper works, allow-non-player-entities-on-scoreboards needs to be enabled in paper.yml (https://github.com/PaperMC/Paper/issues/1904). If you don’t know what paper is, paper (aka paperspigot) is a fork of spigot (the “main” server software that allows plugins) that does more bug fixing and performance improvements than spigot does, but a huge feature is that it removes the buildtools out of creating jar files to run on servers.

I would like some feedback on the idea of replacing MI v1 (I’m going to call it) with v2 (this map), especially from staff.

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Looks nice! I don’t have time to maintain such a large project at the moment though. If you would like to polish and set this up properly I’d be happy to give it a try on our server.

I’m going to be honest, I like the current map now. It’s so simple and nostalgic whereas the big one is just really big. What about, instead of re-doing the entire map, you just updated things on the current one?

The thing about the current map is that all of the mechanics are just a mess of redstone wiring and random command blocks everywhere, making updating it even with filters a pain. Also, I agree that the updated map is really big and doesn’t have any hidy-holes before being just thrown out there unlike the current map.

You could also consider using the old map and redoing the logic with command blocks. Alternatively even make it Plugin driven.

to throw my hat into this id like to put the pros and cons of each map at its most basic functionality and what makes them good or bad.

ill start with the old one because i actually helped build it.

------------current map on server-------------
pros.
its fun. lets face it, thats the most important part right? its not tedious or boring, its fast paced and theres quite a lot of thought that went into it at its conception that has been improved on with the updates made to it.

everything is pretty clear. you dont have a lot of guess-work when playing, not after your first game anyway. i do notice people not even SEE the dirty tactics room for a few games but once you learn about it its fine.

its quite thematic. its got a lot of pretty nice buildings in it. the dark edgyness of it works, its got the strength of a good designer that makes it enjoyable to view.

its short enough to be very enjoyable multiple times in a row. a game can last 20 or so minutes and just blast by cuz of how compact and snappy it all is.

cons

the game is outdated as heck. i helped make this thing like… 3 years ago? and nobody updated it since, its hard to update due to its really dirty redstone command block design. to update it would require a massive investment of time and knowledge of how these things work.

the mobs are buggy. endermites that attack the player that spawned them. the wither was just a nightmare without targeting what it should.

the game has not been balanced for 1.13. the mobs are unbalanced now that you cant spam attack them. the smallness of the map is much more limiting than it used to be. it went from fast paced to overly technical and pushed a lot of players out of the game. it got harder.

and the most important part? nobody is playing it anymore!!! thats the big thing. its gotten old, the nostalgia is there which is why i understand people wanting the old one updated, but its not going to be fresh again, its not going to be exciting to new players like when it first came out either. polishing an old game is a noble effort but it has a lot of rough edges to buff out and would take investment i dont think anyone is willing to put in.

--------------------the newer game----------------
pros.
i really like the design of it. it LOOKS good. its a lot more open, a lot wider, a lot longer and has a very different feel to it. it doesnt feel quite as natural but it feels bigger. instead of dragony darkness, its industry, which i think is a welcome change to the game-mode itself. its got a lot going on, albeit with the same mechanics.

the new-ness of it will invigorate the fanbase. this isnt just an upgrade its a remake. new map, new feel, new designs and hopefully a lot more people playing it.

significantly better command block design oh my god. you know the hardest part of messing with the last map? you had to hide everything behind walls, under ground, around corners, it was a MESS. it was awful. if this map gets popularized i imagine there will be a lot of people making their own tweaks to the map and expanding in different directions! inspiration!

this new map has good ideas in it. the map creator had a firm grasp on what was lacking in the previous game and put them in this one. they didnt just make it look better they made it function better.

the incresed map size will allow more people to play without getting in each others way. the mobs can spread out more and while you cant get them trapped in corners as easily to fight them you will have much better visibility to see whats going on.

cons

it does need a lot of work. if you download the base map on that site? its -far- from finished. theres broken stuff, theres no spawn area to hide from monsters, theres a lot of problems that need addressing just like the first one (cough-buttons dissapearing-coughcough) i actually made multiple upgrades to the map already along with starfield who is a master at command blocks.

its not as unique as the last one. the problem with remakes or sequels is that it will always be heavily compared to its previous iterations and will have a harder time because of it. it lacks nostalgia so may be criticized unfairly, hopefully it stands up to the test.

its longer (default end is 1 hour), at least in its base design and the games might drag on if its not balanced correctly. it needs some fine-tuning for sure, gotta make it feel right.

there are some stupid things in it right now. by that i mean some of the ideas were not thought out. the slaves being doubled in cost but the cost of killing all your opponents slaves being less than 1 enemies death? it makes them worthless. there are a lot of balances in the work.

---------------------conclusion

i think the main issues people have are 2 things.

  1. the map itself isnt done yet, trying to play it as-is does not feel good, please take that with a grain of salt because there have already been major overhauls built into it to make it work and feel better.

  2. the old map holds nostalgia that makes people want it to be updated.

i think it will benefit more going forward to work on the new map, its easier to modify, and a lot cleaner looking, its updated for the newest form of minecraft as well so should match up better with the servers as well. you wont need to revert back to an older version of minecraft to play either which is a big plus.

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So I actually stumbled across your updated map @Burturt on github by pure chance a couple days ago and have played a few rounds with a friend. I was happy to see you were working on updating the version that you linked to in this post. @potatomaster made some great points for the pros and cons, but I think that with the right tweaks this will be a perfect modernization of the original MI that was so great.

Balancing the acquisition of the elemental tokens through damage is a clever idea, indirectly costing you paper by way of food. I love that you can teleport between the two spawn rooms. The dirty tactics room feels a bit too strong all the way around. In the games that I’ve played so far, frequently earning just one or two kills translates to a victory through being able to just constantly and oppressively wiping your opponents inventory and clearing their slaves. We’ve only been playing 1v1 so it may be a different story with teams, but I think 1v1 balance is important as the original map worked well for 1v1’s.

I came here to report some bugs with your updated map, but as i type this I’m realizing you posted it on github, so I can just post the issues there.

Maybe you could share a link to the repo here so people know where they can report issues. :slight_smile:

It can be found here: https://github.com/burturt/Monster-Industries

EDIT: I see you have already addressed the issues, @Burturt that was fast! My friend and I intend on playing a few more rounds tonight so I’ll be sure to try and take notes of any other bugs we run into on the updated map.

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Have you joined the tallcraft discord? Id like to see more active people on there.